AHOI-Mod Army

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AHOI-Mod Army

Post  Chromos on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:18 am

Hi,
I made this thread to have evtually upcoming discussions about the Army part of the AHOI-Mod more organized. Below is the initial draft of the new Army units.

New unit line up for the next version:
(I want to mention that this design also had in mind that it's possible to maybe add later an earlier timeline as WWII.)

Militia: Well, Milita, Light equiped short trained people.

Paramilitary: Police Force with military equipment. Secure supply lines and hunt down Partisans.

Garrision: Garrison forces wich protect areas of value, not mobile but tough defenders.

Infantry: The regular Infantry.

Mot/Mech-Inf: Infantry that is used with mobile forces, first equiped with trucks, later with AFV's.

Cavalry: The good old Cavalry on horses, only for quick transport, and could change the horses with Armored Cars/Trucks/AFV due tech advance.

Airmobile-Inf: Infantry wich uses Helicopter for Transport as a quick reaction force. Also named Air-Cavalry sometimes.

Mot/Mech-Cav: Modern Cavalry wich uses Armored Cars or light Tanks for recon and similar missions.

Tanks: The common Tank unit, uses vehicles from light WWI to modern medium(MBT) after WWII.

Heavy Tanks: The common heavy Tank unit, uses heavy vehicles from WWI to modern heavy after WWII. Can also have a Superheavy section.

Land Cruiser: Eventually, to have the vehicles like K-Wagen(nearly completed in WWI) or projects like "Ratte".

Ranger(Jäger)-Inf: Special trained Inf that fights well also in most rough terrain.

Mountain-Inf: Special trained Inf that fights well also in mountains. Will also include the even more special high mountain trained units.

Marine-Inf: Special trained Inf for amphib landings.

Paratrooper: Airdropable Infantry.

Commando: Very special trained Infantry like UK Commandos/Brandenburger..

Divison-Support: All that extra equipment of a Divsion like AA/AT/Eng/Recon, see post 2 for more info.

Mobile Divison Support: All that extra equipment for a mobile Divsion like AA/AT/Eng/Recon, see post 2 for more info.

Divison Artillery: All the Artillery of a Divsion, see post 2 for more info.

Mobile Divison Artillery: All the Artillery of a mobile Divsion, see post 2 for more info.

Siege Artillery: The extra heavy calibres for long range shellig and fortess attack.

Corps-Artillery: The heavy Artilery that was mostly only attached to Corps or Army.

Corps-Anti-Air: The early AA and later heavy AA that was mostly only attached to Corps or Army.

Corps-Anti-Tank: The early AT and later heavy AT and also TD that was mostly only attached to Corps or Army.

Corps-Engineer: The Engineers that were initially only attached to Corps or Army or later formed as Storm-Engieers in Stalingrad.

Then we'll have the "Elite" section wich will be used to have the several WWI Guards or WWII camicie nere/Guards or SS units.
Elite Paramilitary:
Elite Cavalry:
Elite Infantry:
Elite Mot/Mech-Inf:
Elite Tanks:
Elite Heavy Tanks:
Elite Divison-Support:
Elite Divison Artillery:

The new Divison setup out of 5 Regiments(Brigades in Std-HOI3) will consist out of something like this ususally:
3* Inf-Reg, 1* Div-Supp-Reg, 1* Div-Art-Reg = 5 Regiments.
It will be explained more in detail in the second post.

The third post will describe how the component system will work for especially the tanks.
So you will have now Battalions in the Tank Regiment wich could have different Tank designs like this for a German unit:

Tank Battalion 1: Tank PzII
Tank Battalion 2: Tank PzIII
Tank Battalion 3: No (due to doctrine tech)
Integrated Heavy Company: PzIV short 75mm gun

As I showed the new practicals over in the AHOI-Mod Marine thread I thought it would be also good to have it explained here for th Land units:


You have now for theoreticals for:
Regular Inafntry
Special Infantry(Ranger, Bergs, Marine, Para, Cmdo)
Light vehicle (Trucks, Mechs, ArmCar)
Tanks (Light to Medium)
Hvy Tanks (Hvy to Superhvy and LandCruiser)
Artillery (Light to Medium)
Heavy Artillery (Heavy to Siege)

Docrines are:
Landcombat, Grand Battle Plan, Superior Firepower, Amassment, Mobility, Special forces.



Cheers,
Chromos

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New Division System

Post  Chromos on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:20 am

Hi,
early as HOI3 was released, I made up my mind how I could mod it to something that would "feel more right" to me.
But I didn't had much time and also was kind of shocked about the new performance of the new sequel.
So I did initially only modding "on paper" to get some ideas etc..
As I saw a psot from madprofmike in march 2010 I wanted to share my thoughts about the engine:
Link to the post of march 2010 in madprofmike thread..
CHOCOLATE - brigades/regiments/battalions open conversation. post 12

Later I decided to do my AHOI-Mod also for HOI3 and went public in December 2010. I had also a suggestion from madprofmike about Support-Units wich was already similar what we can see now in HPP/RPM Mod. But I still liked and like my system more:
mapdrofmikes suggestion/question -post 53
My answer below -post 54

I later posted my initial suggestion to madprofmike in post 8 of my AHOI-Mod thread:
Chromos wrote:
"New Division System"

I thought a lot about what was in reality and what is possible with the engine atm.
And then thought again what would be useful in terms of playability.

So we had in reality many different types of f.e. Infantry Division in size and composition.
Same to other "weapon types".

It would be nice to see that implemented in the game.
But it would be also a "clickfest" to reorganize a whole army with new equipment.

Nearly all nations used the Division as the smallest organisational unit that could fulfill tasks on their own.
(It had all needed weapon types to fulfill any tasks, inf, signal, food, medic, art, at, aa etc.)
The Division is the smallest organisational unit used in the game. (Can use a Commander etc. but is build up by Brigades.)

An example from "reality", Infantry Division:
-Staff (Signal, HQ)
-Supporttroops like: Food, Medical and munitions, Transport
-Recon (Sometimes only available at Corps Level)
-Main component are Infantry squads with small arms. (Regimental size, 2 or more, Regiments had from 2 to 4 Battalions..)
-Heavy Weapon squads up to Battalion size. (Hvy Machine Gun and Mortars.)
-Inf support Artillery (Direct Inf combat support, mostly battalion size directly attached to the Regiments.)
-Divisional Artillery (Mostly Regiment size.)
-Anti Air Guns (Mostly Machine Guns up to small calibre, hvy calibre first used only in HQ attached formations, in Batalion size)
-Anti Tank Guns (Small Cailibre, Hvy Calibre used only in HQ attached formations, in Batalion size)
-Engineer (In Batalion size, rarely in Regimental size-> Stalingrad, german Assault Engineers)


Other Division Types had also Tanks(and Tank like, f.e. Assault Guns.) from Batalion up to Regimental size.
And also Armored Cars were used in the recon role.(Battalion size.)

All in all an "average" Division had around 15.000 men. With at least 2/3 of them were designated for fighting.
(Ranges for Divisions are mainly from ~9.000 up to ~25.000 men.)

The composition of a WW1 Division was something like this:
2-4 Infantry Regiments
1 Artillery Regiment
Heavy-MG Battalion
Train, HQ, Medical..

Up to and in the timeframe of WW2 there were added in nearly all Divisions:
AT incorporated into the Regiments and also added as Supoort Battalion for the Division.
Anti Air Battalion
Engineer Battalion (were already part of the Div in WW1 for Germany.)
Assault Guns
Tank Destroyer

So the buildup of Divisions changed with changing circumstances.
So, f.e. the US-Troops had no Engineers integrated in the Divisional organisation. But nearly every Division had one Engineer Battalion attached from higher level!
The compositions often differed from nation to nation because of enviromental differences or different "doctrinal" views.
(Or they just had to use what they have at the moment, f.e. the russian troops at the beginning of the War.<-Organisational Problems as well.)

That brings us to the following:
We have:
Combat troops
-That fight in the front.
*Front Combat Troops:
*Infantry (Garrision, Militia, Colonial, Regular, Marine, Bergs, Para, Commandos, Engineer, Jäger...)
*Armoured (Armoured Cars, Tanks -Light to SH-, Halftrucks, Armoured Personnel Carrier...)
*Anti Tank Guns (Where used also against "targets of opportunity", Bunkers etc.)
*Anti Air Guns (Where used also against "targets of opportunity", Infantry and the Hvy-AA also against Bunkers and Tanks)
*Infantry Guns (Where used also against "targets of opportunity", Tanks etc.).
*Heavy-MG's


-That fight from the rear(Artillery, Anti Air -that was also used againts or Tanks-)
*Rear Combat Troops:
*Artillery, Light Art. up to Railway Guns. (Include also the SHvy Mortars 200mm+ and Rokets)

Non Combat Troops
- That don't fight at all but increase Org and mobility.
*Non Combat Troops (Some have just minimal fighting power for self defense)
*"Logistic" (HQ, Food, Munitions, Medical, Train and later Trucks..)

(Mobilisation is given first by horse (Cavalry), Motorised (Trucks, Motorbikes), Mechanized (APC's, Tanks) and finally by Helicopter.)


If we look at the size of formations and equipment together with the role, we get the following:
(All types represent an own Brigade in game.)

Type 1
Non Combat ("Logistic" = HQ, Food, Munitions, Medical... Regiment size)

Type 2:
Main Combat (Infantry, Tanks, APC... Regiment size)

Type 3:
Direct Combat Support (Engineers, AT, AA, ... alone Battalion size, together Regiment size)

Type 4:
Indirect Combat Support (Artillery... Regiment size)


If Type 1 could not be implemented with an impact to the full Division(f.e. high org and lower the usage of supply?) then it would not make any sense to use it.
It should then maybe be integrated in the other types.
(As for now, I think it is better to have this abstracted in the game trough tech advance.)

Type 2 should vary in size depending on techs(f.e. triangular or square build, or trough having 3 or 4 Regiments into the Division)

Type 3 should vary in size depending on techs that integrate weapon types like AT, AA and so on into the support Brigade.

Type 4 should have the size of a "real life Regiment".

The Typical Division would look like this:

Type 1 = 1 (average = 1)
Type 2 = 1-6 (average = 3)
Type 3 = 1 (average = 1)
Type 4 = 1-4 (average = 1)


Summ = 2-8 (Brigades in game = nearly doubled the Brigades compared to the average now.)

If we don't use Type 1, we have the average of 5 ingame Brigades.

We could build Artilery heavy Divsions (Russian Art Divisions), Some without Art Regiments and Support Regiments (Militia) , build a (Heavy) Tank Regiment with a support Regiment an have some sort of a "Fire Brigade" or give Paras a Support Regiment and you have the "Luftwaffen Feld-Division"(not dropabel any longer, because the Support Reg is not dropable...)
Also we would be able to incorporate new weapons into the "support Brigade" (Type 3) and thus represent the organic structure of a Division a bit more as time passes by.
Via Type 2 would be the overall strength of a Division defined.

That would also lead to no more sole light Tank Brigades. Light Tanks will be a part of Tank Regiments. If you havent researched medium Tanks, than your Tank Regiments consist out of light ones. The "mix" is done via techs. Light Tanks/Armoured Cars will still be used for Recon and in MotMech-Cavalry Regiments..(And there you will see the pics of that type..)
You research a tech "Hvy Tank Department" and then one Company of the tank Battalion will now consist out of Heavy Tanks.

Game wise, everybody would build a Type 3 with his normal Divisions, because it brings ernormous extra firepower in many circumstances.
So no need to extract it into more sole units(Battalions) to manage.

For extra Firepower of some special sort, we can use the corps-troops that are available as AA/AT/ART/Eng and Rak-Art Corps-Regiments
(Again as mostly used in reality)


Long Story short, my opinion:
The current HOI engine is not able to handle a "Battalion based Divisional Model".
And the managing overhead is to big because of the existent managing features are designed for Divisions not Battalions.

And I guess that the Spy-System and also the AI is using the size of a Regiment as a base.
So it seems only logical to me to use just a Military System that is based upon Regiments aswell.

Use a new Divisional buildup consisting out of 4 base types described as above.
All Divisions would consist out of 2-9 Brigades. Normally the average would be 5.
A big diversity ist given mainly trough mixing these types.


Size of Regiments can be defined by techs.
So a technical or doctrinal research may lead the player to a new composition of his Regiment.
As more and more tanks were used and Armies were in need of AT. You research a tech now that allows you to incorporate AT-guns on first Divisional and then another on Regimental level.

Research of Self Propelled Guns(AT, Art and AA) just change the values of former Regiment type.(AT, ART, AA have with upgrade now better Toughness and Defensivenes, lesser softness etc..)

In the end we have a more "realistic" approach of Divisions and more diversity without denying other nations to copy our buildup or let the player design his own personell Division type.
The AI can be more more easily told to build the different Divisions set ups we have seen in the area of ww2.




I hope that describes my approach for a "New Division System".

That shows not how old my initial ideas are, but the first time I posted them in the public. Long before any other mod had that approach..

Cheers,
Chromos


Last edited by Chromos on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:29 am; edited 2 times in total

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New Division Component System

Post  Chromos on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:23 am

Hi,

here I'll explain how the new Division Component system will work.
I'll update asap with new info and pictures maybe.

The amount of components is visuable limited at ~45(~15 in Std-HOI), but with another solution it is unlimted, or better, nearly irrelevant..

With my intentions in mind you would see something like this:

Tank Battalion 1: Tank PzII (Initial one, only increase with new tanks or little buffs like side skirts if decided)
Tank Battalion 2: Tank PzI (2nd Bat available though doctrine tech, gets the stats increase from researched Tank lvl or from Tank modell choosen through decsion, will increase from then like Bat I)
Tank Battalion 3: No (Same as Bat2)
Integrated Heavy Company: No (Will include all the Support Tanks like early PzIV with short 75mm or Inf Tanks of the UK -UK will also have full Regimenst of Inf Tanks but normally they attached them to the Cruiser Regiments-.)
..quite some more nice components.

The increase will be according to the researched techs.
In fact the researched techs will not affect the unit directly maybe.. Wink
You get a as good Panther with the amount of thickness and the armor plating tech and gun you have researched. The possibilities will not cover f.e. guns from 2cm to 15cm but a range will will fit into that time and unit.

The player would need to make a decsion about the tank he want to use/build.
-> AI would pick historic decsions or could be teached to do random usage..
-> Upgrades of components could be done independend from research.
-> Modells could be "skipped" maybe. Dependend on the extra work..
-> Prototyping will be implemented.. More testing, or go in production?


For ease of use, cough cough, the Bat I will be ever updated first, then the other ones.
So you can have in all 3 Bat the same tank but never be 2 modells ahead in one of the three Bat..
The hvy company will be handled differntly as it is a "different story".

Typical Divison set up would then be:
1 Tank Reg, 1-2 Mot/Mech-Inf Reg, 1 Mobile-Div-Support-Reg, 1 Mobile-Art-Reg = 4-5 Regiments.

So that would cover the most Tank-Divs build. The usage of 2 Regiments(with only 2 Bat) was iirc only used by Ger in the very early years(They named it Tank-Brigade then..). After that they also used one Reg with 3 Bat..


I'll very likely only have the importants techs for the tanks as components of the unit, as I don't want it to "clutter" with stuff that was later maybe not used anymore, like the armor skirts etc., but it will be probably shown in the pics..
With the solution in mind it would be also possible to have negative modifier, wich will help to handle longer timeframes.


Cheers,
Chromos

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Re: AHOI-Mod Army

Post  Kadanz on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:05 pm

It seems like you're putting a lot of efford into the mod. I wonder how you find the time to do this...
It seems to me that this can't be done in one day Surprised

Friends and I play this mod whenever we have time to do so. It's good to hear there is some new stuff comming on Wink

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Re: AHOI-Mod Army

Post  Chromos on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:59 pm

Kadanz wrote:It seems like you're putting a lot of efford into the mod. I wonder how you find the time to do this...
It seems to me that this can't be done in one day Surprised

Friends and I play this mod whenever we have time to do so. It's good to hear there is some new stuff comming on Wink

Hi Kadanz!

I've done quite some work in the past wich I now put together.
(I was nearly fulltime modding back last year as I wanted to go commercial.)
Now I'm just only explaining my thoughts on paper in public..

It is still quite some qork and progress is slow due to RL.

Good to read that you like it and it works in MP good enough to enjoy it. Smile
I think the new version will be even more fun.

Cheers!
Chromos


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Re: AHOI-Mod Army

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